I recently had an interesting journey into another world, all without leaving the comfort of my computer. One of the fun things about having your own website is to check out where the referring traffic is coming from. So whenever I notice a large number of hits coming from any new site, I will often go to that site and find the page or reference from which my site was linked. Well after the recent flurry of activity regarding the octuplets, I followed the traffic back to a certain site which turned out to be a bulletin board for a special-interest group. I could not access it without first registering as a member. So I went ahead and made a quick account under my old internet alias “IVF-MD”. I entered the site and spent a little time browsing. I found out it was a safe haven for people who call themselves “child-free” (the hyphen is my own doing). I have previously heard the distinction between childless (want children, but still don’t have any) vs. child-free (willfully do not want children) and this was a site for the latter group. The site was a place where they could safely congregate and support each other’s desire never to have kids without being judged, questioned or pulled into a debate. The members of the site were in an uproar about the octuplets, but then again, who isn’t? As I was navigating the site, I noticed a section at the top of the page announcing “WHO’s ONLINE” with a listing of the different members who happened to be online at the time, and my identity was pasted across the top of the list. There I was — “IVF-MD” on a website for people whose very worldview is generally not in favor of people who do fertility treatment. I felt like a male who had just stumbled into the ladies room by mistake. With a little sense of panic, I glanced at the FAQ of the site, where it encouraged people to “introduce yourselves”. I found the section of the site entitled “INTRODUCE YOURSELF”, and I went on and jotted the following apology:
“I am a physician who helps couples who want babies. This is one of the last places for me to come. However, please allow me to explain my visiting. I am likely perceived by many of you as part of the enemy. I apologize for upsetting you, if that’s how you take it. But, I’m never going to post anything further. I just came by to learn a little and to be open-minded and enlightened. I found your site when I noticed a number of hits to my blog from this site, meaning that some of you dropped by to visit ME.
Anyway, I strongly support your right to be child-free and I do counsel patients to consider that as another good option.”
In retrospect, I later realized that this was a mistake. Putting myself in the shoes of the members of the site, I later understood that this was their safe place, where they could support each other in their shared belief of not wanting children. In life, they are often inundated with questions from well-intentioned family members or strangers asking them “when are you going to have kids”. People would offer sympathy at their being infertile, and they would have to clarify (sometimes in a less than smiley-friendly tone) “No, I’m not infertile. I CHOOSE not to have children”. In their posts, they often talk about their encounters with misbehaving children. Having run into my share of unruly children at the mall, as I’m sure all of you have, I could certainly empathize with them in that aspect. Furthermore, I later learned that people with opposing views would sometimes come and invade their site for the expressed purpose of stirring up an argument. These were often people from the mommy special-interest-groups who would come over and be in-their-face with comments like “How could you not like kids? Kids are the greatest joy in the world!”
So anyway, I thought I would leave that apologetic post and be done with it. Well, after I posted, I started getting replies to my thread. The first one asked if I had any children. Apparently, if I would have taken the time to completely read their FAQ, I would have learned that parents, while welcome to read all they wanted, were not allowed to post anything on their site. I had said I would not post anything further, but I felt it rude not to answer a direct question so, I replied that I had two dogs, but was not a parent yet. I did add that I might like to be a parent in the future and reserve the right to be one someday. Next, another nice reply came, welcoming me “since you are childfree” and then went on to vent and direct my attention to many of the issues that child-free people face. One of the complaints was directed against doctors who refused to do hysterectomies or refused to do tubal sterilization on patients who did not have children already. I wasn’t aware that this was a huge problem, because most of the complaints I have heard in the past are about doctors who are TOO QUICK to sterilize or to do hysterectomies. I wrote a reply agreeing with the notion that doctors should not assume to know better than the patient what that patient wants. But, as to why a doctor would deliberately withhold treatment from a patient, doctors have to be careful of doing something even if a patient says she wants it because of later accusations that they didn’t counsel the patient enough. If a 22-year-old woman without children demands to have her tubes tied, any doctor that does it could be subject to a major lawsuit if that woman later changes her mind. Cases like this have happened.
So the thread progressed into a civil exchange of ideas about doctors being too condescending in refusing to do what a patient wants vs doctors getting in trouble for doing something that the patient would later regret. It was an informative mutually respectful exchange. Then some more replies trickled in.
One of the replies simply reminded everyone that I may or may not be lying when I said that I had no children and that they can only take me at my word regarding that. Perhaps I was already in a hyper-sensitive state, but I was a bit irked at being falsely accused, albeit indirectly. Then two more replies came in questioning me further. They brought up the point that if I really intended to just come into their domain and lurk (ie silently read what others had to say but not say anything myself), then why did I do the direct opposite and not only introduce myself, but also continue to post rebuttals to their questions.
My first reaction was to defend myself (and I did), going into detail as I have above about how I happened to stumble on their site when I followed the traffic back from my own site. After giving it a little more thought, I was able to see it from their point of view. This is their official public policy about whether or not parents were allowed to post on their site:
“This board is a safehaven for the Childfree where we do not justify ourselves, thoughts, decisions, or actions to any non-CFers. This is a companionship board, not a debate board, and posts questioning the Childfree or extolling the virtues of parenthood will not be tolerated.
We’ve had parents posting here before. We’ve seen parents post at other childfree-only boards. What we have never seen is a parent who could carry on the sort of conversation we have here without getting offended sooner or later and pulling the “as a parent, I…whatever” out of their arsenal.
This board is not the place to discuss regrets, if any, about having children, because this board is not the place to discuss child-rearing issues of individual posters AT ALL. The places on the internet where those conversations are available are legion. The places on the internet where the childfree are free of parents are about 6.
Childfree non-custodial stepparents and fencesitters are, and have always been, welcome to post. Just as the intro says we do not care to hear the virtues of parenthood extolled, neither do we wish to hear the regrets.
You are to be commended for announcing yourself as a parent. Many people have tried to be a part of this community and lied about their childed status. Unfortunately, not one single parental poster on this board has ever managed to keep their kids out of their posts. We don’t care. We really don’t care. Every day in our jobs, in our families, we are inundated with people and their children. We come here to be free of that- childfree, in fact.
Parents should not post here. We ask you to respect the intention of the board. Feel free to read.”
So for me to intrude and engage in a debate, no matter how polite, was just not right. After that, I asked them to delete my account and I left.
As much as my profession sways me to be biased as to the virtues of having children, even to the extent of being proactive about it when it doesn’t happen naturally, I can see the arguments that the child-free make. If they don’t want kids themselves, who are we to judge them, question them or to tell them that they don’t know what they’re missing? I respect anybody’s right to want kids (that they will properly provide for) or to not want kids. Furthermore, the child-free make the point that government funding for IVF is unfair to THEM, because it adds insult to injury to make them incur the burden, as taxpayers, of paying for other people to have kids when they themselves are so against it. Before you get the idea that I agree with them completely, I have to draw the line when I hear some of them rant that they want to unilaterally ban people from having children, even if the parents fully support the children on their own with no government assistance. Their argument is somewhere along the line that each additional person is harmful to the planet and therefore should not be allowed. Some day, when I’m in the mood, I’ll debate this head-on, but I will not make the mistake of doing it on the sacred ground of the websites of the child-free. Rather, I’ll do it here on my own turf.
Anyway, this little adventure was a learning experience for me. I used to be a lot less tolerant than I am today. Nowadays, I make a conscious effort to at least try and see the other side’s viewpoint. One side argues that the government does not do enough to help infertile couples. The other side argues that it’s unfair to force someone to subsidize the conception, birth and maintenance of other people’s children. One side argues that unfit parents should not be allowed to raise children. The other side argues that the state is being too heavy-handed in taking children from their natural parents. I optimistically look forward to the way the world could be some day if we would all make a better effort to see the other viewpoint.
Thank you for your views. I’m very impressed that you actually left the childfree space without having to be tossed out. You have no idea how many parental trolls that spot has suffered.
Thank you. Can’t we all just get along
Being a stepmom (noncustodial) I have always had a bit of a mom-type role… so I can not imagine being a “child free” even if we do end up not having children after all.
I think that your curiosity may have gotten you in a bit of trouble but no harm no foul seeing how you recognized that.
Good for you!
It sounds like you stumbled on one of the “voluntary extinction groups.” Every day I learn how different my life experiences are. I have friends who are child-free by choice, infertile, accidental parents, and parents by choice. I’ve always considered their decisions to be personal as long as they didn’t make their decision a burden on society as whole – and were responsible.
Most of the CFBC people I know are not of the “voluntary extinction group” variety.
MLO, we do have members who are for voluntary extinction, but that’s not our primary slant. Childfree people, just like parents, have a wide variety of reasons for making the choice we did. Some choose not to have children for environmental reasons. Some have other obligations or conditions that they know would not make them good parents. Some like kids and even work with them but just don’t want their own. Some just plain don’t like kids or at least are uncomfortable around them. Some always knew they didn’t want kids. Others came around to that choice through various means.
And for those who think it’s a bit paranoid to have our own private space, when parents do come over, we’ve been blamed by parental trolls for just about everything from 9/11 to the potential destruction of the human species. How sad that in this day and age, so many people can’t see that having children is a choice and we don’t all have to make the same choices in order for our individual preferences to be justified.
It’s so nice to hear a dr that is so open minded. I am CFBC but not of the “children should be banned” variety. We face so much hatred when people find out we don’t want children. I wish more people would read your blog so they could see that it is ok to not want children.
As someone who is a parent, and became so by utilizing fertility treatments (well, I didn’t, I’m just the dad), I don’t feel any hatred for those who choose to be childfree. That makes no sense to me. The choice is one we all make for our own reasons. We may not agree about the reasons, but the choice is still each person’s to make.
Unfortunately, cloistered walled gardens on the internet tend to promote, not dissipate, a resonance of vitriol towards the “other side”. Certainly the experience with this childfree board with parental trolls, from equally walled gardens of parenting sites, demonstrates this pretty well.
You should see the flamewars over stupid things like game consoles, TV shows, Star Trek vs Star Trek: The Next Generation, pop vs soda, boy bands, computer operating systems. They can make heated exchanges about children, religion or politics look like civil discourse on public radio. It’s not the subject matter that drives this, so much as our need to be “right” and “win” the argument and be comfortable with the “correct” beliefs that we hold.
You absolutely have the choice to run your “turf” as you like, but be aware as long as the internet has been around, trolls have existed and we’ve yet to find a solution to exterminate them, and echo chambers (ideological monocultures) inexorably tend towards incremental intolerance. It’s not a reflection of just the technology, but of human nature as well: We tend to forget there’s another person we’re responding to, when all we see are some bits of data thrown up on the screen, so “they” cease to be human, and can be demonized easily. We get used to our supposed (and false) anonymity online, and feel empowered by it to hurl out vitriol, without (we believe) repercussions. I know, because I’ve been on these here internets for a while (since the early ’90s), and these behaviors were long codified before I even got online, and I certainly fell into many of the same traps.
So, Dr. Lee, it was good for you to step out of your comfort zone, to venture somewhere your beliefs would be questioned. You handled this with maturity. But next time, use dnsstuff.com and google to figure out where your referrer traffic is coming from, so you can be a little more prepared before you step out again
Very nice comment, TM. Now get this. My traffic report just showed a mini-spike of 54 visitors from ravelry.com, a site which up to now had never referred to me. I just went to it and see that it, too, is a bulletin board community site, which professes that “ravelry is a knit and crochet community“. I registered, but can’t access it yet, because “There are 3137 people ahead of you in line. Your invitation should be sent in about 3 days.” Only God knows what type of adventures I will find in the highly polarized and controversial world of knitting and crochet. Having learned from my last experience, methinks I will remain a bystander lest I find myself caught in the midst of a violent clash between the natural-yarn supporters vs the synthetic-yarn supporters.
I found this post via a link on another CFBC board (perhaps a bit more exclusive, since we’re all on a much bigger members-only social site for knitters and crocheters, ha).
It’s wonderful to see more positive posts and articles about acceptance of our choices. So often the tones are at best pitying, at worst villifying, that ones like this are refreshing.
Thank you for the kind comments and thank you for solving my little mystery.
Yep, I made it over here from Ravelry too! Are you going to choose the same username for yourself, that is, IVF-MD? We’ll all be very interested in seeing your creative knitting projects. Perhaps a knitted boob for a breast cancer survivor? Or a teeny hat for a preemie baby?
Haha, don’t mean to sound facetious, but I love the thought of non-crafters visiting Ravelry and discovering how OBSESSED we are with our sticks, hooks and string. We over at Ravelry can be a bit defensive about our beloved site, so I’ll put in the good word now on behalf of my stitching friends to say that once you get there, you’ll realise that it’s a lot more than just a “bulletin board” site. Oh my, yes.
And to actually comment about your post, I applaud you for taking the time to research ‘the dark side’ yourself, and also thank you for having such an open and non-biased mind about the issue.
On a personal note, I am frustrated with the law in Finland dictating that I must be over the age of 30 (or have at least two children of my own) before I can have any type of sterilisation procedure.
The Ravelry links are from a childfree board on the site. Just to let you know. So far there’s not a lot of posts on it, just thoughts that you were polite enough to leave and that you are open-minded. So, no real need to join up if you don’t like to fight in yarn wars
Elsteffo and Jennifer. Thanks for saving me the trip. I’ll cross off “future visit to knitting site” from my To-Do list, although the baby hat idea might be good for my Yorkie.
I have one curious question for you Elsteffo regarding the policy in Finland. Are they denying to PAY for the sterilization procedure unless you meet their guidelines? Or are you completely forbidden to arrange to get it done, even if you were to want it so bad that you’d pay for it on your own (I agree it’s not necessarily a good idea if you can get it paid for eventually).
“voluntary extinction”? What about the inevitable extinction that will result from continued overpopulation, depletion of resources, global warming, etc? Oh, I forgot – those arent real.
I’m also from Ravelry and found your post extremely refreshing, especially given your profession. I have been going to the same GYN doctor (not just the practice, but a specific doctor) since I was 22. I am now 34. I got married at 26. Somewhere along the way, my husband and I decided we didn’t want children. Ever. I went to my gyn and asked about getting my tubes tied. She said she would never do it to someone my age (30 or 31 at the time) who has never had a child. She said I could change my mind. Sure, I could have gone to a doctor willing to do the procedure, but why should I have to? I had been going to her for at least eight years. I just love how “my body, my choice” applies when it comes to abortion but not to pregnancy prevention. My husband got a vasectomy 18 months ago. His doctor knew we were childfree and only required a 30 day waiting period. It was his first visit to this doctor.
I also came over from Ravelry and I want to applaud you for your open-mindedness in your consideration of the fact that not all people want children, and that it’s perfectly OK to feel that way. So many of us (childfree) are attacked for our strong convictions that parenting is not for us – it is beyond irritating to have to explain and justify our choice when no one asks parents to justify theirs. We are called selfish, and I’ll agree to that characterization when parents admit that their choice to have children was selfish as well – we’re both doing what we want to do, and isn’t that the whole point of living life? It boggles my mind that some people can’t wrap their heads around the idea of living very happily childfree, and it makes me think they are less than secure in their own choices. Anyway, thanks for being so thoughtful and even-handed regarding your treatment of the issues.
There are also links from Ravelry’s Big Issues Debate forum (BID) where people were thinking that just because you do IVF you will have a baby – the octuplet mother’s fault. I thought I linked to the statistics post when I posted that.
Oh, and you do realize that there are doggie sweaters that could be knit for your Yorkie?
I found your site from a link on a page about the octuplets.
I have read a number of your posts on various topics. I enjoyed reading your posts, and I was reading to see if you mentioned anywhere any pre-screening before procedures are performed. Mainly, I was wondering about psychological screening for any patients that may throw a red flag up for doctors (ie. already has 6 children no husband no job no money except for what she is willing to spend on fertility treatments or if a plastic surgeon has a ‘frequent flyer’ patient).
I am a happy SAHM of 2 (and a wife to my husband). I don’t care if people choose to be child-free. I even understand why many do not want kids (I know that never wanted to have kids until a couple years after I graduated college). I found several of the CFBC statements to be rather extreme. The people that I know that are CFBC just don’t want kids because they don’t want kids. It is not to push any type of agenda.
Oh, BTW I am a ravelry.com member (I crochet). I never even knew we had a CFBC board. The ravelry site is predominately about all things yarn and yarn related crafts. You are still welcome to join. You could pick out a pattern for your yorkie:) and maybe start a group for raveler volunteers who want to make baby clothes for your success story patients.
Thanks for the comment, Valerie.
I have on occasion required patients to get cleared by a psychologist before proceeding. It would take something pretty obvious, but this octuplets mom would have fallen in that category. If somebody is just mean-tempered or lazy and maybe might not make the best parent because of that, that’s not enough for me to require psych screening. For reasons I can only speculate on, my practice tends to attract nicer, more stable, hard-working patients. I say this with a lot of inside knowledge from various sources about what patients are like at other practices.
Thanks for the knitting offer, but my Yorkie already has plenty of clothing. I would be a bit more hesitant to admit to that if I weren’t already so secure in my masculinity
. By the way, I also have a german shepherd who could subdue an intruder in 10 seconds.
had recently herpes virus found in my blood. what I haveto do??? I’m in panic…